Perminder Mann
Perminder Mann is CEO of Bonnier Books UK. Perminder’s parents were first-generation immigrants from the Punjab, arriving in the UK in the 1960s. The eldest of eight children, Perminder learnt the value of hard work from a young age, witnessing her parents juggle several jobs.
She arrived in publishing by chance, starting out as a special sales manager at Macmillan then Transworld, before working for two independent publishers. She then made a career change to manage the international division of a toy company. To spend more time with her young family, she decided to take a sideways step and returned to publishing in 2010 as a sales manager at Bonnier, rising through the ranks to become CEO in 2017.
'We have been working together to create a shared vision for the future.'
You’ve steered, and continue to steer, Bonnier through a period of significant change – what would you say were the main obstacles you faced during this time of change?
I wanted this period of change to be an evolution, not an upheaval. We have some truly wonderful people here with so much passion for what they do. Yes, we’ve had several challenges over the last few years, but there have been many hard-earned successes too. It was important to me that we didn’t forget that and to celebrate those successes, which would then pave the way for the next chapter of our story.
I set about identifying my new senior leadership team and, since then, we have been working together to create a shared vision for the future. Our goal then was to lay the foundations for a shared culture that would unite everybody across the business. Because we had grown so quickly, the way we operated had become quite siloed. I’m proud to say we are working much more collaboratively now, although we’re still operating across multiple offices, which brings its own set of challenges! Given our large size, it will serve us well to eventually be under one roof. Ultimately, I want us to keep the spirit and individuality of our imprints, within a ‘one company’ ethos.
'I thought I had to conform to the idea of what a CEO should be.'
Can you tell us about how it felt when stepping into the role of CEO? What do you wish you had known, and what are the qualities that make a good CEO?
I honestly never planned or aspired to be a CEO – it was a natural result of working hard. While I didn’t feel unprepared for the role, I’m not ashamed to say that for a while I thought I had to conform to the idea of what CEO should be. Along with the responsibilities of the role there is an unspoken stereotype of how one should look and behave that goes alongside that – I even cut my hair to look older and started dressing more conservatively! It was my husband who pointed out to me that the way I was behaving wasn’t authentic. He said to me, ‘You got here by being you…why are you changing? Who told you to change?’ He was right – I was inflicting this behaviour upon myself and that realisation was liberating.
One of the qualities of a good CEO in this day and age is to promote diversity and supportive cultures. If everybody felt more comfortable and empowered to be themselves in the workplace, naturally we’d have more diversity. As an industry I believe we have a responsibility, not only to recruit inclusively, but to build welcoming and supportive cultures where people can truly be themselves. Someone once asked me if I was the same version of myself at work as I was at home, to which I proudly answered, ‘yes’. It hasn’t always been the case for me, but I’m so relieved and happy to say it is now.
'From a moral point of view we should always be striving to grow our market and get more people reading.'
What has been your proudest moment in your career to date?
Although Bonnier has a strong reputation in Europe, we were relatively small in the UK at first and operated under the radar. And then ‘the Alfie Deyes moment’ happened in 2014 – we were the first publisher to work with a vlogger which resulted in a huge bestseller with The Pointless Book. The book signing at Waterstones Piccadilly was mind-blowing. Thousands of screaming fans turned up for which no one was prepared. We had to close the store and the police were called to control the crowds! The Pointless Book started a massive trend – we were this pioneering, tiny team and suddenly everybody wanted to know ‘Who are Blink [Publishing]?’. We got a lot of stick for it ‘not being a proper book’, but it was an extension of Alfie’s brand – and it was very clear that there was a market for it. The book raised a whole debate about commercial publishing reaching out to ‘non-readers’ vs. literary worth. My view is that to stay relevant we have to publish books that speak to the next generation coming through. I think publishing will always have that ‘core book buying market’, but from a business and a moral point of view we should always be striving to grow our market and get more people reading. Selling books to people who only buy one or two a year is a privilege in my eyes – they might not even see what they are reading ’as a book’ – it’s just an extension of what they love.
'As a working-class Indian mother of two, I have a responsibility to help bring more people from under-represented backgrounds up through the ranks.'
You’re frequently listed as one of the most powerful people in publishing – does that weigh on you? How do you hope to use your influence?
As a working-class Indian mother of two, I think I have a responsibility to help bring more people from under-represented backgrounds up through the ranks. The privileged position I’ve found myself in has also made me want to give back more – but I’ll be honest, it can sometimes feel like a tug of war. While I try to be a role model and take part in community outreach work, I also have a responsibility to the 300 people that work at Bonnier Books UK, to my day job and most importantly to my family – it’s a demanding job. The policies I’ve put in place since I became CEO have been designed to bring about meaningful, long-term change. One of the first things I did was introduce flexible working for everyone, with core hours from 10am – 4pm Monday to Thursday and 10am – 2pm on a Friday. Some people might prefer the traditional ‘9 to 5’ working schedule, but it can be infantilising. I work with passionate, intelligent people who I trust to get their job done how they see fit. If you want the best out of people, you recognise and reward their achievements, not the hours they clock up at their desk.
'I try to really champion ideas and encourage others to speak up when they disagree.'
You’ve spoken about how you aim to foster a culture at Bonnier that allows everyone to be their authentic selves. What does this mean in practice?
It means walking the walk yourself, which is easier said than done. The pressure to conform is real! We all feel it in different ways every day – I remember, for years, I felt I was going to be judged about my choice of where I went on holiday or what books I read. As a senior leader, your personality and how you execute your responsibilities naturally influences others. I try to really champion my colleagues' ideas and encourage others to speak up when they disagree. That doesn’t mean I will always end up agreeing with them, but as a matter of principle there should always be a platform for debate. Finding that confidence is not always easy – especially for junior colleagues – so I see it as my responsibility to foster an inclusive culture where everyone feels valued. To be honest, I don’t think we’re fully there yet, but we are certainly making progress. What we are trying to achieve it built on trust, and building trust takes time.
'Be mindful of your thoughts and remember that some of our most instinctive reactions may be ingrained in us by the patriarchy.'
Could you give one piece of advice for the women working in publishing who are reading this interview? Is there a really important piece of advice that you were given?
‘Every cloud has a silver lining’ – I live and breathe by that advice. I am a true optimist and believe everything happens for a reason. Always take the lessons – good or bad, success or failure – and learn from them.
Another thing I would say – and this applies to any woman – is that I do really believe that we need to support each other more on a day-to-day basis. We are still so quick to judge one other – we’ve been conditioned this way – and even the smallest, pettiest remarks can stay with you for a long time. For some reason, it always hurts me more when I’m criticised by a woman. My advice is – in your role as a sister, mother, wife, colleague, friend – think carefully about what you say to and about other women. Be mindful of your thoughts and remember that some of our most instinctive reactions may be ingrained in us by the patriarchy. To support one other to the best of our abilities, we need to be able to express ourselves honesty and openly without fear of judgement.
Finally, can you tell us about one other woman working in publishing who inspires you?
Immediately, Juliet Mushens [of Caskie & Mushens] springs to mind. I follow her on Instagram and think she’s great as I believe she is really herself. I admire her as a bloody brilliant professional, too. She is really good at her job and so inspiring for generations coming through – a role model who gives people permission to be themselves.
